Talk:American football

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Good articleAmerican football has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
February 15, 2005Featured article candidateNot promoted
December 30, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
January 9, 2006Good article nomineeListed
September 21, 2007Good article reassessmentDelisted
January 20, 2013Good article nomineeListed
November 21, 2013Featured article candidateNot promoted
May 25, 2014Featured article candidateNot promoted
Current status: Good article


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External links modified[edit]

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Lead paragraph[edit]

The lead paragraph says:

American football, referred to as football in the United States and Canada, and also known as "gridiron football" or simply "gridiron", is a sport played by two teams of eleven players on a rectangular field with goalposts at each end.

This is incorrect because “American football” is not synonymous with “gridiron football”. For example, Canadian football is another type of gridiron football. I changed it to this:

American football is a sport, referred to as football in the United States and Canada. It is a type of "gridiron football", or simply "gridiron", in which two teams of eleven players compete on a rectangular field with goalposts at each end.

This has been reverted for reasons I don’t understand. Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:05, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

It's not inaccurate. "Gridiron" and "gridiron football" are terms often used to refer to American football in other countries (see: Etymology and names). To say they aren't goes against multiple reliable sources. Toa Nidhiki05 16:23, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
You disagree that Canadian football is a form of gridiron football? Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:17, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
This issue was recently discussed at Talk:Gridiron football#Requested move 4 October 2017. In summary, the terms "Gridiron" and "gridiron football" are used to refer to both American and Canadian football, and often American football by itself. As such, the original wording is accurate, but we could add a ref note that the term includes both versions so we don't bloat the lead paragraph. - BilCat (talk) 18:38, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Thanks for the info. In view of that info, I suggest this language which seems to clearly describe the situation:

American football is a sport, referred to as football in the United States and Canada. It is a type or synonym of "gridiron football", known also simply as "gridiron", in which two teams of eleven players compete on a rectangular field with goalposts at each end.

I don’t think a ref note is needed, but would not object to one. Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:07, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

One problem with what you've written is that the first sentence needs to explain what the subject is, not just what it is called. The original sentence is quite long already, so just combining the two sentences that you've suggested wouldn't help that. That's one reason I suggested a note. - BilCat (talk) 19:35, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── It said in the first sentence that it’s a sport, but things are easily rearranged to say more in the first sentence:

American football is a sport, referred to as football in the United States and Canada, in which two teams of eleven players compete on a rectangular field with goalposts at each end. It is a type or synonym of "gridiron football", known also simply as "gridiron".

I think this is much better than what’s currently in the article, because this new proposed material very clearly and concisely says that American football is both a type and a synonym of gridiron, instead of just saying it’s a synonym. Why just say it’s a synonym and not also say it’s a type? This can be done so concisely in the lead that I don’t see the need for a note, but wouldn’t object to one. Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:02, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Again, I really don't like this. The current wording is really fine and just needs a note for clarification - if anything. Your revision is incredibly unclear as to who calls it "gridiron". Toa Nidhiki05 22:31, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
User:Toa Nidhiki05, the article now says “also known as ‘gridiron football’ or simply ‘gridiron’” and I’m suggesting that be changed to “a type or synonym of ‘gridiron football’, known also simply as ‘gridiron’”. Neither version says who calls it gridiron, right? So could you please clarify your objection? Many people consider American football to be a type of gridiron, whereas many other people consider American football to be a synonym for gridiron, and the version I’m suggesting gets that point across clearly and concisely, unlike the current lead which treats them exclusively as synonyms. Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:41, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Okay, well, I plan on giving that last version a try, along with a note as Bilcat suggested. Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:17, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
You’ve given it a try on the talkpage and nobody else wants it. Toa Nidhiki05 20:39, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
The only one who’s objected to the latest proposal is yourself, and your reason makes no sense, because what’s in the lead now already is “incredibly unclear as to who calls it ‘gridiron’". If you give a reason that makes sense, then I’d be glad to consider it and give it weight. Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:42, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
I have inserted a note, as User:BilCat suggested above. "Gridiron football" should be in bold in the lead sentence, per WP:Lead which says "significant alternative titles ... are placed in bold". Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:59, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Intro rewrite[edit]

I changed the intro to start out:

American football is a team sport played by two teams of eleven players on a rectangular field with goalposts at each end. It is a type of gridiron football closely related to Canadian football, and in both countries either might be referred to as football, gridiron football, or simply gridiron.

@BilCat: Could you explain why you reverted this as being incorrect? I'll note Canadian football says:

In Canada, the term "football" may refer to Canadian football and American football collectively, or to either sport specifically, depending on context.

Thanks! -- Beland (talk) 00:43, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

It is not "referred to as gridiron football, or simply gridiron" in the US and Canada. - BilCat (talk) 00:45, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
In addition, the current Lead paragraph was decided by lengthy discussion in the previous section. You really need to discuss it here first and get a consensus before making any changes to it. - BilCat (talk) 00:48, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
@BilCat: If you mean to say those terms are only used in other countries, then how about the following. -- Beland (talk) 01:20, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
American football is a team sport played by two teams of eleven players on a rectangular field with goalposts at each end. It is a type of gridiron football closely related to Canadian football, and in both countries either might be referred to as football. Both sports are also known as gridiron football or simply gridiron in the rest of the world.
"in some other parts of the world" would probably be better, as "American football" is also used in some countries also. - BilCat (talk) 01:26, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

OK, does anyone have any concerns with:

American football is a team sport played by two teams of eleven players on a rectangular field with goalposts at each end. It is a type of gridiron football closely related to Canadian football, and in both countries either might be referred to as football. Both sports are also known as gridiron football or simply gridiron in some other parts of the world.

-- Beland (talk) 02:00, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Updated. -- Beland (talk) 02:06, 29 January 2018 (UTC)