Talk:Jawi alphabet

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earlier comments[edit]

--Sepenidur 12:23, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC) The kaf itself is in the basic Arabic alphabet, and so should be shaded white. The gaf form is a bit difficult because, although it is usually described as a kaf with a dot over it, its isolated form does not follow the isolated form of the kaf, but looks more like the medial form. (See http://jawinet.8k.com/rumi/main.html under "Definasi tulisan jawi" for an example). This has caused confusion with Sindhi, which has developed a variety of letters derived from the kaf. Hope that helps, if you want to update the chart.

Image caption[edit]

Image caption says:

The chart should be read right-to-left, top-down.

What is this supposed to mean? Why? I'm sure that the cells with English words in them like "From Arabic" are meant to be read left to right. None of the characters are contiguous. What part is meant to be read right to left? --Tabor 04:24, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

cffdgddd
It's referring to the order of the cells. The cells should be read from right to left. Alif is the first letter, nya is the last... If you're still confused think of Alif as A and nya as Z in the Roman alphabet (this isn't true but maybe it'll help you understand), the cells could be thought of like this:
CBA
FED
IHG

Nil Einne 14:41, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

It would be clearer if the text were changed to "The chart should be read in right to left rows", that way the reader will know to start at the right, then move to the left and when they reach the end of the row, to move down to the next row, again starting on the right, and so on. Kiwehtin (talk) 03:10, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Merge?[edit]

I oppose the merge - this article is about the Jawi script and the other one about the Yawi language, they should be two separate articles; all other language and script pairs are two articles. --Cbdorsett 10:07, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Isn't Gaf is actually pronounced as 'Ga'[edit]

Isn't Gaf is actually pronounced as 'Ga'?

I think I learned the 'ga' not 'gaf'....... Can someone please change the wording.....

Yes, it's pronounced 'ga'. See this. Also, the image chart does not match the chart later on in the article. I propose it be removed. --Dwchin (talk) 06:53, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

{{Incubator|code=jawi|prefix=Wp}}[edit]

Halló! As far as I understand the system {{Incubator|code=jawi|prefix=Wp}} is wrong. Please see Names.php where « <language_code>-<script_code> » is used. Aliases as « zh-cn » , « zh-hk », « zh-tw; » are allowed beside these. Best regards
‫·‏לערי ריינהארט‏·‏T‏·‏m‏:‏Th‏·‏T‏·‏email me‏·‏‬ 02:19, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

What evidence for derivation from Persian?[edit]

There are several references to a Jawi being introduced via Persian contact and to letters being borrowed from Persian script:

"Its development is linked with the arrival of Islam, mainly from Persians." (Introduction, paragraph 1)

"The Jawi script originated from Arabic literature introduced from Persian contact with the Kingdom of Jambi (...)" (Introduction, paragraph 2)

Footnote references are given at the ends of the respective paragraphs, but it is unclear to me whether the texts referred to justify the particular assertions here or are instead meant to refer to other material in their respective paragraphs, it would be worthwhile to explore whether the degree of Persian contact was as strong as this article makes it seem. Sources I have read on Indonesian history generally attribute the introduction of Islam to Arabs and even more so, to islamicised Gujaratis; in particular, Tome Pires' Suma Oriental, which describes early 16th century Malacca up to the Portuguese conquest of 1511, mentions a massive Gujarati presence in Malacca and the presence of other Indian peoples, but not to my memory the presence of any Persians. (See the quote under "History" at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahasa_Rojak. The "Parsis" in the quote were almost certainly Indian Zoroastrians, not Persians; see the Wikipedia article on "Parsi" for evidence on this point.)

The table:

The names given as Arabic are inaccurate, they imply pronunciations that are only found in a few regional dialects such as Lebanese. The correct Arabic names for the letters can be found in the Wikipedia article on Arabic script:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_script

The implication that the Jawi special letters for sounds not found in Arabic are borrowed or derived from Persian script cannot be supported, this is a major inaccuracy and it is important that this be changed. There is next to no evidence that the new letters were not indigenous inventions based on the general structure of Arabic script, the only one of the Jawi letters that is shared with Persian is ca (چ), which has the same shape as the Persian če (چ). However, the alphabetical order is different in Jawi and Persian scripts. Jawi ca appears in between hha and kha, whereas Persian če appears between jim and hha. If ca were derived from Persian influence, there would have been no reason to change its position to a different one from the Persian position.

None of the other special Jawi letters exists in Persian; in fact, for similar sounds, Persian and Malay developed completely different letters, based on different Arabic letters, independently of each other. None of these facts would be expected if Jawi were based on Persian or even if the new letters were based on some kind of Persian influence.

Finally, if Jawi were derived from or influenced by Persian, one would expect it to be written in the cascading Nasta'liq style typical or Persian and Urdu scripts, but in every old document I have seen from all parts of the archipelago, Jawi script is written in the Naskh style typical of Arabic, which points to an Arabic rather than Persian origin.

More effort should be made to locate well-documented and well-argued studies of the origin of the Jawi script as a basis for the Wikipedia article, until that time, the article will remain misleading and inconsistent with the facts.

For information on Persian script and to compare it with Jawi, see the Wikipedia article at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_script#Orthography

If any of the assertions about Persian sources for Jawi are taken from documented sources, then evidence to the contrary (such as that found in the Wikipedia Arabic script article and Persian orthography article section together with their original sources) should be included in order to provide a scientific balance of evidence.

Kiwehtin (talk) 03:42, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. I hope more research is carried out to find out about the development of Jawi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.82.80.49 (talk) 16:29, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Information which needs to be added[edit]

Is Jawi written as an abjad like Arabic, with most of the vowells normally left out ? Arabic supposedly only uses 3 vowels with short and long forms. Malay as far as I can tell, uses more than that. How do the vowells get written in Malay/Jawi ?Eregli bob (talk) 16:47, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Should Malaysia use Jawi Script?[edit]

I'm thinks yes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.82.80.58 (talk) 10:13, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

It's still alive in the religious schools, and in Johor, students write down notes in Islamic Education classes using Jawi. In some places road signs were written in Rumi and Jawi, but the Chinese DAP seems to object using Jawi for unknown reason. There was a suggestion that Jawi should be taught in schools and it received positive response even from MCA, but so far no effort could be seen towards making it a nationwide knowledge. I personally prefer to write Malay in Jawi because it's much faster and takes less space and letters. Alas, not many instances where I could use it :( — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.82.80.49 (talk) 16:36, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Vowels[edit]

This article lacks information on how vowels are written in Jawi. Do they follow the arabic system of using diacritics? If so, what diacritics are used, and are they compulsary? (I.e. will they always be written, are they only sometimes written, or never written? V85 (talk) 16:11, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Jawi scripts do not need diacritics. The Malay language often uses vowel letters (just like English such as A, E, I, O, and U). If A, it is written with alif (ا). Same thing goes to I (ي), O (و) and U (و). E is used under circumstances. If the word is DEWAN (pronounced DÉ-ONE), which means "hall", the Jawi word is ديوان. If the word is BERI, which means "give", the Jawi word is بري. A consonant is followed with a vowel (like "ma" ما, "bee" بي, and so on). Usually, the writers put diacritics for calligraphy. Muhammad Mukhriz (talk) 00:14, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

http://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/romanization/malay.pdf KPUFFERFİSHĊ 01:45, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

The Malay orthography (1892)[edit]

A book on orthography in Jawi.

https://archive.org/details/malayorthography00hudsrich

Rajmaan (talk) 06:29, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

DENT[edit]

babydolls — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.215.242.123 (talk) 09:53, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Unicodes of isolated, initial, medial and final forms?[edit]

Having the unicode values for the letters is really helpful, but what are the unicode values of the ligatures of the 4 forms of each letter? Specifically I cannot find anything on nga = 06A0. Same goes for ga = 0762, va = 06CF and nya = 06BD. Can enyone help, and maybe let me know where they found the answer? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.116.45.66 (talk) 13:12, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

Comparison with Arabic[edit]

A little more information, and more accessible for the casual reader, about the differences and similarities with the classical Arabic script would be useful. Perhaps by adding an extra column in the main table with Arab equivalents, like there is already a column with Rumi/Latin equivalents; in some cases these boxes will be empty, in other cases the character will be the same and perhaps there are cases where the form of the letter is different? Bever (talk) 21:48, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

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