Talk:Muslim conquest of Persia

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Farrokh is not a historian[edit]

Since Farrokh is not a historian(which is mentioned by Kmhkmh above), I have removed the him as a source including the quote. I have left information within the article, if it can be supported by a reliable source then it should stay, if not then it should be removed. --Kansas Bear (talk) 03:35, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

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Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 19:55, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

This paper shows significant climate cooling at the time, possibly affecting people in the region. Also, the Plague of Justinian article mentions losses in the Sassanian empire. TGCP (talk) 13:20, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Muslim conquest of Mesopotamia redirect page[edit]

I noticed that Muslim conquest of Mesopotamia redirects to this article, although it is mainly about Persia, not Mesopotamia. Would there be a more suitable target for this redirect page? Jarble (talk) 20:24, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

That's because Mesopotamia was entirely under the Persian sway until the Arab Muslim conquest. Thus, the redirect is correct. However, the article is quality/quantity wise still in quite a dire state, and in the future a separate subsection regarding the Arab operations in Mesopotamia should be added. - LouisAragon (talk) 17:28, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
Edit; I just checked it once again, there is already in fact a subsection on this page regarding the conquest of Mesopotamia. But as I told as it was simply a part of Sasanian Persia, and was in fact its core region (the Sasanian capital was located in Mesopotamia) there is, in my opinion, no need for a redirect to that subsection. - LouisAragon (talk) 17:33, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Would "Rashidun conquest of Persia" work as a title?[edit]

I saw some commentary by User:IranianNationalist at User talk:Jimbo Wales recently. Clearly there's something contentious about the "Arab" or "Muslim" portion of the current title, though I don't necessarily understand the issue. But it seems to me like the effect of the conquest was to put the Rashidun Caliphate in charge, so would "Rashidun conquest", with the ethnicity and religion that implies, make the most sense?

Admittedly there's a problem that I see very few search results for "Rashidun conquest of Persia", and it's possible I'm just suggesting something stupid. Wnt (talk) 18:33, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

The proposed title looks quite bizarre to me. --Z 18:45, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
The title doesn't look bizarre, because the word Muslims and Arabs have been the mainstream words used Historians. In discussing Rashidun and Muhammad. So I have no objection. Yet I don't think there is any racist ideas, the Iranian Wikipedia are having a discussion about the title. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 19:14, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
  • "Arab conquest of Persia" and "Arab conquest of Iran" are the most common titles in reliable sources. Iranica used "Arab conquest of Iran", and The Cambridge History of Iran, Volume 4 also used "The Arab conquest of Iran and its aftermath". These two sources are among the most reliable sources for history of Iran. Other reliable sources in Google Books also used "Arab conquest of Persia" and "Arab conquest of Iran" more than anything else:

So, according to WP:COMMONNAME, In my opinion the title should be "Arab conquest of Persia" (or Iran). -- Kouhi (talk) 06:05, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

You are being lawyer/WP:LAWYER here, there shouldn't be any change not a drastic one from Muslim to Arab, or Persia to Iran. The article is fine. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 06:41, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
If you believe the article is fine, may I ask what's your point in saying "I have no objection [to Rashidun...]"? Also, it is not "Iranian Wikipedia", it is Persian or more natively, Farsi Wikipedia (the Persian Wikipedia has nothing to do with Iran or any other country). -- Kouhi (talk) 21:32, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
Because Rashidun is just detailed form of Muslim, that is why I didn't have an objection, yet it will create a domino effect on other Muslim conquest articles, since Rashidun, Umayyad and Abbasid are inter connected in their conquest. Muslim conquest of Transoxiana is a great example, occurred mostly in Umayyad era and ended during the first years of Abbasid era. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 03:25, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
The title in Persian Wikipedia is the "Arab invasion of Iran", which is the common way of refering to the event in Persian. However, it is an inaccurate title, as there have been some Arabs on the side of Persia, and as far as the English Wikipedia's article is concerned, "Rashidun ..." is not a common title either. I think "Muslim" is the best word for the English article. --Z 20:22, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
And there were also some non-Muslim Iranians on the side of Arab Muslims, so in the same way, "Muslim" is also inaccurate. -- Kouhi (talk) 21:32, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Hi there
There are some notes :

  1. The title of the Farsi article is not "Arab Conquest of Persia" nor "Muslim Conquest of Persia" but it is exactly "Invasion to Iran by Arabs(or Arab people, having same meaning)". AFAIK the adjective "Arab" before the noun "Conquest" is same as Arabic Conquest not Conquest by Arabs or Arab people. I don't assume the title "Muslim Conquest of Persia" to be a racist title. It was the starting point of developing Islamic state of Muhammad(Medina Islamic government as it is approved by Iyad Jamal Al-Din during the Al Arabiya's debate too [IrN1 1][IrN1 2]) after his death(Muhammad's death) however Muslim Conquest of Levant was started during his life too.
  2. @Kouhi: Who was the non-Muslim on the side of Arab Muslims? Do you mean Salman the Persian? He was not an Arab but he was a Muslim. Were he not a Muslim? Sorry but your claim is a few weird because you say there were non-Muslims fighting in the army of Islamic state in the first Hijri century. In WikiFa you were claiming the Arab Conquest doesn't mean Arabic Conquest and you were insisting on the Invasion to Iran by Arabs but now you've used "Arab Muslims" yourself? How is it an adjective now?
  3. As I said in WikiFa repetitively Arabic tensions between Arab nations such as Lakhmids and Sassanian empire backs to more than one century before Islam thus if we say tensions between Arabs and Sassanids started by Muslims(as it's said in wikifa article) it will be wrong historically too.
  4. Muslim Conquest of Persia is a good title but it must be used in WikiFa too : تسخیر پارس توسط مسلمانان and not حمله اعراب به ایران.

I add a note : in the discussion in WikiFa we had some insult to Arab people by those were backing the title Invasion to Iran by Arabs, I'm sorry, but the partial user had said the "lizard-eater Arabs". As I know today in Iran we have a policy to Islamicize :) the Persian figures such as Cyrus (Making him a Basij figure). Similar to Safavids trying to misuse Islam politically. It is normal the statesmen in Iran having faith to Ayatollah Islamic state to try to avoid Muslim adjective in the title Muslim Conquest of Persia and insisting on Arabs. Last year, We had a famous speaking in Iranian TV channel 1 by a famous actor, Akbar Abdi who had a close relation to Islamic state of Iran about the movie Ekhrajiha and he told a story about Hajj and humiliated Arabs totally regardless of the subject that the Arabic peninsula of Saudi Arabia is not the only Arab nations and we have many Arab countrymen inside Iran. Yes I approve the respectful title Sayyid is a part of a dirty racist system but it doesn't mean to take another racist viewpoint against Arabs and it doesn't matter it is said in some partial or inaccurate sources or not. Arab and Ajam is a different discussion.

--IranianNationalist (talk) 17:04, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Disclaimer: I wasn't that user in fawiki whom IranianNationalist claims[citation needed] insulted Arabs. And you IranianNationalist, you better keep the affairs of fawiki in fawiki. You have been already banned in fawiki for making personal attacks, so just for the sake of your account, don't involve yourself in irrelevant discussions that may end up in another blocking for you, and be more considerate to not say anything against anyone and any religion. Pages in English Wikipedia are named based on WP:NAMING, not based on a series of irrelevant statements about Islam and Iran, so just make your points based on that rules and reliable sources you have. And one another thing, I'm free to use every word and term I like and that's none of your business, nonetheless, nevermind, I don't have enough time to spare on this, specially I won't talk with you as long as you can't avoid personal attacks. So, watch your tongue or I will report you to the administrators. Good luck. -- Kouhi (talk) 20:32, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
@IranianNationalist: Without non-Muslim Iranians the conquest would have been hard, I'm sure you are aware of the various land owners from Faris, Khurasan and Mawarannahr who have made deals with the Rashidun and Umayyad territories, after all who killed the last Sassanid King in the great city of Marw? The point is there are many wars where the naming convention will be hard to apply. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 22:31, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
@Kouhi 1. In Wiki English those watching Wales' user talk page know every thing about your complaint and that inactive admin account in WikiFa who suddenly became active to block me for 2 days. 2. Again same as WikiFa I warn you to not attribute your lies to other users because here again no one claimed about you to insulting Arabs however you said something different in Farsi discussion which was not an insult so be aware here because English admins will not support you. --IranianNationalist (talk) 22:43, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
@Alexis Ivanov: The final result was the Muslim Conquest of Persia whether Muslims used some other non-Muslims traitors or not. But with regard to the inflaming of Persian libraries by Rashidun or selling slaves it was absolutely an invasion (Similar to ISIS because some people helped them too). Anyway Conquest or Invasion the discussion was about Arabs or Muslims. How can an article have a completely different title in WikiFa versus WikiEn? The problem is about Arabs and it seems that you Alexis Ivanov approve that non-Arabs as you said non-Muslims helped Muslims to conquer Persia. --IranianNationalist (talk) 23:07, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
@IranianNationalist: You can't be a traitor towards a failed and incompetent king. ? Did you expect them to muster an army from Khurasan, maybe in hollywood, not in real-life they just murdered him and reduced his suffering. How is Rashidun Caliphate similar to ISIS? Having the same religion and selling slaves, just simplistic categories that you intentionally cherry picked, nice move. Articles in every language Wikipedia can have different translations and meaning to different languages it occurs, it is something natural. Also How can I approve that certain people from 7th century helped another group. It just occurred I never gave any approval, maybe if I can time travel? Alexis Ivanov (talk) 04:08, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
I repeat, as I said previously, "invasion" or "conquest" it's not important but the important case is Arabs vs Muslims. But about ISIS as we know (I hope you too) the verses 23 and 24 of Nisa' in Quran clarifies the rape of married imprisoned women by Muslims(blievers). As we know ISIS applies the fundamental of Quran, what we had (as the people of the earth) in Saudi Arabia and also in Iran(Shiraz for example) about cutting the hands of thief off and we call it as Islamic Fundamentalism (same as other current terrorist Islamic groups or Sadegh Khakhali In Iran and those who made executions in Iran). Are you a Muslim? You think different about Islam? So you are not a Muslim. I know Islam and Islamic society from inside (regardless to Islamic regimes) whether Shiite or Sunni.
You had said there were non-Muslims helped Muslim army during the conquest of Persia, so, clearly you approved there were non-Arabs helped Muslim army, is this not the conclusion of your comment? Because the discussion is about racism and what I'm talking about is : Arabs were not the only invaders to Persia (or new name Iran as it's been said in WikiFa) in that time and the tensions between Arabs and Ajams have a background from Lakhmids and even older. But about Muslims the conclusion of the invasion to Persia by Islamic empire (Caliphate) was the Conquest of Persia (It is clear) and they might have the accompany of non-Muslims as the same thing we have about other invasions in other centuries (for example Lotf Ali Khan and Ebrahim Kalantar Shirazi) and it will not change the name of that invasion or overthrow of an empire. Jizya is one of the proofs of the Islamic Invasion to Iran. --IranianNationalist (talk) 12:41, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

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