Talk:Serbs in Italy

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Source[edit]

This editis based on 1885 Serbian source, which itself isn't RS (outdated etc.). However, the problems begin with the attribution of the claims. Graziadio Isaia Ascoli isn't the ultimate source, a fact evident in the journal too (По господину Рубертнеу). Who is Рубертнеу(Рубертис?) ? This a 19th century Serbian source and this Рубертнеу says that the Schiavoni/Dalmati of Molise are Serbs that were brought by the Albanians but in the relevant article i.e. Molise Croats the case is very different. That being said as always WP:BRD applies, so no reverts please.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk22:11, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree that source is unreliable.
Let me remind you that you promoted Siege of Krujë (1466–1467) although some of the sources are written in 16th century. This assertion is attributed to Graziadio Isaia Ascoli who referred to Serbs when he said that they came with Skanderbeg together with Albanezi with words " вели госп. Асколи ондје, први Срби — или како их онамо обично зову Schiavoni или Dalmati — дошли су у Молизе заедно с Арбанасима (Албанези) што их је онамо довео Скендербег."
There was no reason for your bold edit so I will revert it according to BRD. In future please ask for translation.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:24, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
Please translate По господину Рубертнеу, вели госп. Асколи ондје, први Срби — или како их онамо обично зову Schiavoni или Dalmati — дошли су у Молизе заедно с Арбанасима (Албанези) што их је онамо довео Скендербег. to me and don't quote half sentences. The claims are extraordinary and POV especially if source misrepresentation is involved, as far as I know there are three communities in Molise that have a Slavic-speaking population: Montemitro, San Felice del Molise, and Acquaviva-Collecroce. Can you find some evidence of Serbian settlement during any period with Albanian assistance or point out to a Serbian community in the area? Btw don't start making any new claims without answering to my questions.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:32, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
You should not revert me before I translated the quote:
"According to Rubertne, Mr. Askoli says there, first Serbs - or how they usually call them there Schiavoni or Dalmati - came to Molize together with Arbanases (Albanezi) brought there by Skanderbeg."
No source misinterpretation. Please revert yourself.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:59, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
That means that the original claim is from this Rubertne not from Ascoli. From what I understand from your translation is that Ascoli is reporting Rubertne's claim.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:04, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Here the same source says: "Ти су први Срби населили Montelengo".
There are dozens of important questions I asked you but never received the answer. What about answering some of them? Can you start with this question.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:09, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
My understanding of this quote is that it was Rubertne reporting what Askoli says there (in Italy) about the first Serbs, or how they usualy call them there (again in Italy).... But now, after I read your view, I confirm that there is a possibility that it can be interpreted as Ascolli's report of what Rubertne (I don't know who is he) says.
Anyway, I don't agree there is anything extraordinary with this claim. Skanderbeg himself was a Serb and there were many Serbs living in the territory he controlled, so it would be actually extraordinary to claim that Serbs did not came with him to Italy. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:19, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
This is much more interesting issue than it looked at the beginning. There was mistake in the quote, it was not Рубертне but Рубертис and it was not обично but обичније. It is obvious from this page that Rubertis is Ivan de Rubertis. Here is the whole quote:
"... ко је и шта је наш честити Иван де Рубертис, додаде и оно што је од њега добио о српским колонијама у Молизу. По господину де Рубертису, вели госп. Асколи ондје, први Срби - или како их онамо обичније зову Schiavoni или Dalmati — дошли су у Молизе заедно с Арбанасима (Албанези) што их је онамо довео Скендербег." --Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:43, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
Giovanni De Rubertis was a member of the member of the Serbian Academy of Science and Arts--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:50, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
Here is a source which explains what are "slavic speaking municipalities": Montelongo, Castelluccio degli Schiavi, Cologna, Ripalda....--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:54, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

(unindent)I won't dwell on the usual national WP:FRINGE that has been refuted. Apparently Ascoli had no part in yet another misrepresented claim. We know this community as Molise Croats and from what I can verify there's a consulate of Croatia too in their villages, so you can't dispute that with a 1885 claim from a Serbian source and your OR.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 00:16, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

  1. There is no OR here. I presented source that support the assertion I added to the text of this article.
  2. I answered all three of your questions, i.e. translated the quote, presented a list (supported by source) of Slavic speaking communities that are different from the three communities you listed and explained who is de Rubertis
  3. Yes in this case the quote can be interpreted on two ways:
    1. Giovanni de Rubertis reporting what Graziadio Isaia Ascoli said, or
    2. Graziadio Isaia Ascoli reporting what Giovanni de Rubertis said
but it only gives more significance to what both of them emphasized: "The first Serbs - or how they simplified call them there Schiavoni or Dalmati - came to Molize together with Arbanases (Albanezi) brought there by Skanderbeg."
Therefore please revert yourself.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:42, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

(unindent)Different Slavic-speaking communities ≠ Serb communities brought to Italy by Albanians in the 15th century i.e. WP:OR. In fact, Castelluccio degli Schiavi was first attested in the mid 12th century[1] , the quote comes from Giovanni de Rubertis and his identification of Dalmatian (Croat) and Slavic (Schiavoni) communities as Serbs that were brought in the 15th century by Albanians is another 19th century fringe view.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:01, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

OK, then it will be attributed to him.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:32, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

(unindent)It'll be removed because it's a subject that has been covered by many authors and since this 19th century source is the only one that maintains this view without support from modern reliable sources it's fringe. Historiography has moved on from 19th century (ethnocentric) accounts that primarily deal with the appropriation and identification of everything other with the self.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:49, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Please don't remove sourced assertion.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:53, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

(unindent)Sourcing an assertion doesn't make it an assertion that should be included. That is determined by the number of other sources that have supported and propagated it. I can find a source about the flat earth theory, various conspiracy theories etc. and they're all fringe. Given that it's been more than a century since this was published in this Serbian work (still don't know who ultimate source is), by now if this was a legitimate theory some modern sources about the Molise Slavic speakers would support it. --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:59, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

The source that supports this assertion is written by Risto Kovačić (academy member) who carefully attributed to Graziadio Isaia Ascoli (academy member) explanation of position of Giovanni de Rubertis (academy member). Since this assertion is not presented as scientific consensus but carefully attributed to its author it does not need any additional support.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:18, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
Here is 21st century work which emphasizes that Milan Rešetar had great respect for work of Risto Kovačić on Serbs in Italy.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:49, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

(unindent)... i.e. still not a source that supports your view.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:04, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Don't attribute views to me. Its not my view we talk here, it is a view of Giovanni de Rubertis (academy member) presented by Graziadio Isaia Ascoli (academy member) to Risto Kovačić (academy member) who accepted it published it in his work used in this article. The 21st century source (21st century periodical) published information that Milan Rešetar supported work of Risto Kovačić highly evaluating his research of Serbs in Italy.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:38, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
Btw Ascoli has nothing to do with this view so don't attribute it to him. He merely reported GR's opinion, which should be put into perspective as modern scholarship and the self-identification of the Slavic-speaking Molise community(3 villages all in all, none of those you pointed out as formerly Slavic-speaking were in Molise or even attested as Slavic in the same period).--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:26, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Incorrect. If Ascoli reported GR's opinion then he certainly has something to do with it.
Yes, the source says that Skanderbeg and other Serbs together with some Albanians came to Molise, not settled there. I corrected the text. Thanks for good observation.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:57, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
They are called settlers as these were villages that were granted to the Albanian leaders who participated in the war and everyone who settled them later did so under the settlement treaties. I'll ask for RSN to deal with the inclusion of this view. Also, avoid using verbs that make geographical distinctions that depend on someone's geolocation i.e. came. Of course, we won't attribute anything to Ascoli as there's nothing qualitative to attribute to him. --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:03, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Who are we? Source says that Ascoli reported GR's opinion. Please stick to the source.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:08, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

(unindent)You again attributed it to Ascoli and actually reworded it in a manner that read as if the existence of such a community is a certainty and the theory is de Rubertis's view, however, the whole argument per the quote is his theory. --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:08, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

improper synthesis[edit]

I'm removing the following two paragraphs:

When the Serbs claimed protection by Emperor Heraclius (r. 610-640), they were introduced to the Christian faith immediately by "Roman elders".[1]

This has got nothing to do with Serbs in Italy. It's clearly a cultural contact between the peoples, but not in Italy.

After an Arab raid and subsequent sieges along the coast of Dalmatia in the late 860s, Emperor Basil I (r. 867–886) put the Slavs of Dalmatia under his suzerainty. He also enrolled many of the Serbs and other Slavic tribes as auxiliaries and sent them under his admiral Niketas Ooryphas to Apulia, where they participated in the siege of Arab-held Bari in 871, alongside western emperor Louis II.[2][3]

This also shows no actual relevance to Serbs in Italy - there's no mention of e.g. those people involved in the siege remaining in Italy.

Classic WP:SYNTH. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 09:31, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

  1. ^ De Administrando Imperio, ch. 32 [Of the Serbs and of the country they now dwell in.]: "the emperor brought elders from Rome and baptized them and taught them fairly to perform the works of piety and expounded to them the faith of the Christians."
  2. ^ De Administrando Imperio, ch. 29 [Of Dalmatia and of the adjacent nations in it.]: "The king and the pope acceded to the emperor's request, and both of them came with a large force and joined up with the army sent by the emperor and with the Croat and Serb and Zachlumian chiefs and the Terbouniotes and Kanalites and the men of Ragusa and all the cities of Dalmatia (for all these were present by imperial mandate); and they crossed over into Lombardy, and laid siege to the city of Bari and took it."
  3. ^ Fine, The Early Medieval Balkans (1991), p. 257