Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television

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WikiProject Television (Rated Project-class)
WikiProject iconThis page is within the scope of WikiProject Television, a collaborative effort to develop and improve Wikipedia articles about television programs. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page where you can join the discussion.
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edit·history·watch·refresh Stock post message.svg To-do list for Wikipedia:WikiProject Television:

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Guiding Light[edit]

Moved to Talk:Guiding Light § Episode count: Topic seems more appropriate at the article Talk page.

Template:Television ratings graph[edit]

Given the recent closing of Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2018 July 6#Template:Television ratings graph as "no consensus", I think that we really ought to have a discussion about this template and usage. Its usage is continuously reverted against a multitude of articles, but we can't get a consensus to delete. Do we need to form guidelines on its use? -- AlexTW 00:12, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree some guidelines would be useful. I didn't cast a vote in the TfD because I'm a little on the fence about it. I don't think it should be used widely, but I do think it is useful as a visual in some cases - I just don't know how I would even personally define "some cases" -- Whats new?(talk) 00:42, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
A guideline should not be formulated unless there is overwhelming consensus on the issue. The TfD shows that won't happen, so I think trying to come up with any guideline is equally as pointless. People will just have to slog this out, article by article... --IJBall (contribstalk) 00:44, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
There was no overwhelming consensus on the issue to delete, sure, but I think we could all get together to make some guidelines, ones that would come up with some rules on when its usage is not needed on an article, so that we don't have it everywhere. As I said, I've seen that its usage is continuously reverted in a multitude of articles, so writing up guidelines in the documentation would make it easier to handle, instead of article by article. -- AlexTW 00:47, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
I'm not saying "don't have a discussion" – I'm saying the discussion is unlikely to be definitive, and anything that is not strongly conclusive should not be added to the MOS. --IJBall (contribstalk) 00:53, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
That's why I suggested documentation guidelines, not the MOS. The MOS wouldn't be needed for such a specific template. Or the FAQ page, that works too; I've been meaning to add our "standard practices" to that. -- AlexTW 01:01, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
OK. I could see establishing some framework for using these – like, "Don't use these for any TV series that has run less than 3 seasons or [x] number of episodes..." That would probably be a start. --IJBall (contribstalk) 04:11, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Definitely agreed. I've seen graphs for one- and two-season shows. But number of episodes definitely work better, due to the massive variation between some shows, that go from 3 episodes a season to 25+; same basis that we have for episode-list splitting. And personally, I would suggest they only be used when reliable sources actually comment directly upon the trend on viewers, so that we have something to back up its usage. For example, sources commenting on how Game of Thrones' continues to increase its viewers every season, breaking its own records, or sources commenting on a show that started off great but now has very minimal viewers. -- AlexTW 05:25, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

They don't really belong on pages with pre existing ratings tables as they don't offer anything substantial to justify being used in this way. When a show is continuously losing viewers you can clearly see this on the ratings table, I don't think a visual aid is needed in that regard. Like you know, see how Designated Survivor started really high but continuously lost viewers. Esuka323 (talk) 11:49, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Here are some things i believe we need to discuss:

  1. Should the graph be used in a series' parent article or in the "list of episodes" page?
    Answer: I believe that the graph should be used in the "Ratings" section of a series' main article, accompanied with some text describing and explaining how the ratings have progressed over the course of the series. In order to avoid repeating data, the ratings tables should be moved to the LoE pages, where there is more space for exhaustive stats. I believe that the graph should not be used in season articles, where ratings tables should be created. If this isn't possible due to lack of information on shares and DVR ratings, season-specific graphs similar to the one used at Rick and Morty (season 3)#Ratings could be used instead.
  2. Is it necessary to cite sources for the ratings? Even when the graph is being used in the LoE page, where the episode tables with the episodes' ratings figures are usually found?
    Answer: I don't think that citing sources would be necessary when the graph is being used in LoE and season articles, just like we are not using citations in the lead section and the infobox, which repeat information for which sources are given elsewhere in the article.
  3. Is the current way the inline citations are being used (below the graph) the best we can do? Can we think of another way of citing sources, if you believe it's necessary?
    Answer: I believe it would be better to either bundle the citations in order to maintain text–source integrity (here's how that would appear to readers), or place the citations in a separate column inside the table, as i had previously suggested at Template talk:Television ratings graph.
  4. In cases where a series/season's episodes ratings can't be found all together in a single page on the internet for us to cite it as our source of information (tvseriesfinale), how could we maintain a consistent citation style?
    Answer: As i said, i believe that citing sources for the graph in LoE pages would be redundant anyway, so i'll not focus on this case. However, if the graph is used in the main article, which i consider a more appropriate place for it, we need to make sure the stats are verifiable. In this case, we could add a footnote below the table directing people to the LoE page where they will be able to find the sources they are looking for, though some of you might think this is a WP:REFLOOP (i personally don't think that, but i can see why others might - what do you think?). Since bundling citations for individual episode ratings would be impractical, we might have to disallow the use of graphs in the main article of a series in cases where not all ratings of a series or season can be found in a single page, unless we can come up with another convenient and comprehensible citation style.
  5. What should be the minimum number of episodes/seasons for a series to qualify?
    Answer: At least two seasons of a series should exist for a graph to be created. A graph shouldn't be created for a series with less than 20 episodes, regardless of the number of seasons. A graph can be created after the premiere of a season, only if the total number of episodes after its conclusion will be at least 20 episodes.
  6. Should we decide on a minimum contrast ratio for the colors of two consecutive seasons?
    Answer: This is an issue for series overview tables as well. I believe the contrast ratio for the colors of two consecutive seasons should be at least 2.5. Currently, the background colors that have been selected for the first and second season of Westworld are  #2F4B59  and  #545C6F  respectively, with the contrast ratio at 1.381. Seeing how the color for the first season is dark, if we were to slightly increase the lightness of the second season's color, we could have  #2F4B59  again for the first season and  #9099AE  for the second one, with a contrast ratio of 3.237. Here is what the graph looked like before, and here is what it looks like after that change.
  7. When can the table with the ratings numbers be omitted below the graph?
    Answer: Depends on the citation style that we will go with. If the references are not going to be placed inside the table, i would support removing it from the template completely, and instead direct the readers to the episode tables with a footnote for them to find individual episode ratings. I consider the purpose of this graph to be the display of the ratings trend of a series, and not to provide information that can be presented in other, more appropriate places.

That's all for now. I will probably return with more questions and hopefully some answers. - Radiphus 18:42, 16 July 2018 (UTC) Updated with answers. - Radiphus 09:47, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

I think the graph should only be used on the list of episodes page when there's no ratings tables. Such as what has been done with Outlander. I would source the data for said tables but its really hard to get consistent DVR data for Starz shows for some reason. Esuka323 (talk) 20:28, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
I think the graph should never be used with {{Television season ratings}} and should not be in season articles. (To avoid stuff like this List of The 100 episodes#Ratings and Game of Thrones (season 7)#Ratings). So if a series has season articles or doesn't have season ratings tables in their LoE (like Outlander) then we can show the graph at the LoE. I also see no problem with having the graph at a series main article as well like Game of Thrones#Viewer numbers. Yes, for the sourcing since it would also be at the main series article. For the minimum seasons and episodes, I would go with This template can be used as a visual representation for ratings trends of multi-season programs but should not be used for programs with fewer than three seasons and less than 40 total episodes. That episode count can be changed to whatever we agree on. I have no real pickness on the count, but I think it should be at least over 26-30 to warrant the need to display the data visually. For omitting the table below, for sure for any show with seasons over 18+ episodes. At that point, it's just a bunch of numbers. - Brojam (talk) 21:22, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
I totally agree with you, I'm sorry for not replying sooner I was hoping more people would join in the discussion. By the way the Game of Thrones example you gave, just wow. That's so ridiculous for anyone to put an entire series worth of ratings data on a season page and below a ratings table too. Just awful. I think there needs to be some kind of consensus to stop something like that happening but I don't know enough about Wikipedia policy to suggest anything sorry. Esuka323 (talk) 22:07, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

I oppose the blanket removal of ratings tables from the template, as they are quite small and present the information in a different format than episode lists. Strong oppose any season requirement for using the template, as ratings are measured per episode and not per season; an episode requirement may be appropriate if and only if it is kept very low (certainly not 20, let alone 40). Modernponderer (talk) 04:15, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

  • Comment. If this is to be used at all, it should be only used once per series, as an overview (not on individual season articles), and it should be substituted and not created in template space. All existing templates should be substituted and deleted, and the merit of a graph should be discussed on an article by article basis. However, most of the time, I would suggest they are not needed. --woodensuperman 15:30, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

I have bundled the citations below the graphs, so please let me know what you think about that. While doing that, i noticed that data provided by BARB for UK series (i.e {{Broadchurch ratings}}, {{Luther ratings}}, {{Spooks ratings}}) are accumulated over a period of 7 and in some cases 28 days, in contrast with Nielsen ratings data for US series which refer only to live plus same day viewership. Should we keep using the graph for UK series? If yes, i believe the heading above the graph should read "U.K. viewers per episode over seven days (millions)". - Radiphus 07:32, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Coming back to this, the most recent TFD was closed; the consensus is to list them at their individual pages directly, instead of creating template namespace graphs. This way, it should be easier to deal with them on a case-by-case basis. -- AlexTW 15:31, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

It's nice that some editors are making an effort to remove the graphs from the season pages and redirecting them to the main page for said graph. They never belonged on the season pages and certain editors were just placing them on any and every page that they could without consensus. That was the only issue I had with them personally(Well besides the random occasions when they are wrongly used). Esuka323 (talk) 18:46, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Do we really need a graph on the list of The 100 episodes page? It's sat below five ratings tables and seems rather pointless to me. Esuka323 (talk) 18:38, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Middle names in Cast and characters sections[edit]

Hello All,

I'd like to point all whom might possibly be interested to a discussion happening over at the talk page for the new Netflix comedy series All About the Washingtons here: Talk:All About the Washingtons. Myself and three other editors are engaged in a debate over the relevance of including the full of name of characters when mentioned in dialogue rather than in the credits of the series in question. I don't feel compelled to transcribe the contents of this rather long and ongoing discussion but would encourage others interested in the subject to give it a read and consider contributing to the conversation. – BoogerD (talk) 03:41, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Merger discussion for Eric Forman, Michael Kelso, Steven Hyde, and others[a][edit]

Merge-arrows.svg

Articles which may be of interest to members of this project—Eric Forman, Michael Kelso, Steven Hyde, and others—have been proposed for merging with List of That '70s Show characters. If you are interested, please participate in the merger discussion. Thank you. —A L T E R C A R I   14:49, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

One of your project's articles has been selected for improvement![edit]

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Hello,
Please note that Anna Anka, which is within this project's scope, has been selected as one of Today's articles for improvement. The article was scheduled to appear on Wikipedia's Community portal in the "Today's articles for improvement" section for one week, beginning today. Everyone is encouraged to collaborate to improve the article. Thanks, and happy editing!
Delivered by MusikBot talk 00:05, 13 August 2018 (UTC) on behalf of the TAFI team

World of Dance (season 2) - some help please[edit]

Kia ora, I'm a newbie when it comes to editing TV shows but found myself editing World of Dance (season 2) after reading it and finding some issues with grammar. Turns out that an IP editor from Germany created the article or at least wrote a lot of it and is now getting frustrated with me, so I would appreciate some others stepping in to maybe help? I could be wrong, but from what I've edited and been reverted on, it appears to be s lot of puff/trivia that isn't required in the article and is actually at the moment unsourced. It feels more like a dance Wiki article when I started than a Wikipedia article. I don't want to get into an edit war and now wonder if maybe I was wrong but feel even compared to World of Dance (season 1) it's not correct. Any advice or help would be appreciated. NZFC(talk) 17:13, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

You're talking right up my alley – most of the reality TV show articles contain WAY too much trivial, basically WP:INUNIVERSE "results" nonsense that absolutely violates and murders WP:INDISCRIMINATE in every way possible. This isn't a Wikia – this is not the kind of information we should be covering here. But I'm not sure anything can be done about it – to "push back" this kind of thing now would require a concerted many-editor "push" to roll-back this kind of trivial nonsense at a manifold of "reality TV" series articles... --IJBall (contribstalk) 19:39, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
There was a massive discussion that closed recently at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Should the "In wrestling" section be removed from professional wrestling articles? that dealt with the removal of trivia from wrestling articles, which was even posted on reddit discussions to bring in the mass. I wonder if the reality crowd is as organized as they were. --Gonnym (talk) 20:01, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2018 August 16#Template:Japanese episode list[edit]

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2018 August 16#Template:Japanese episode list. The discussion is a proposal to merge {{Japanese episode list}}, {{S-Japanese episode list}} and {{S-Episode list}} into {{Episode list}}. -- AlexTW 02:56, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Basing major layout changes to a Featured List on the consensus of two editors[edit]

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Basing major layout changes to a Featured List on the consensus of two editors.

This discussion regards the recent proposal to merge the prose plot summaries from the Game of Thrones season articles to the Game of Thrones episodes article, a Featured List, and the apparent consensus to do with by the support of two other editors. -- AlexTW 08:30, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

The Use of Ellipsis in Article Titles[edit]

A discussion over the merging of two articles is occurring over at Talk:There's...Johnny!. The main issue of debate at this moment is the use a space after an ellipsis in the title (see There's... Johnny! and There's...Johnny!). I am inquiring to the Wikipedia community as to whether is a policy or some sort of guideline in the Manual of Style that might give some direction on how this situation should be handled. Is there a proper way of using an ellipsis in an article title or sentence? Is one more grammatically correct than the other? If anyone has any insight into this, I would certainly appreciate their response. – BoogerD (talk) 23:42, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

USA or Other Viewers of Episodes[edit]

Is there a policy/template on listing viewers per episode of a series. I ask because for example this article List of My Hero Academia episodes includes the USA episode watching numbers and Kantō region rating details in the Summary section. My feeling is that this information is of marginal interest, and if it is to be included, it should probably be in a separate column, not in the Summary. Are there any examples where "episode watching numbers" are included in summaries? Ozflashman (talk) 09:53, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Ratings provide important real-life context to fictional topics. I'd include both of them, or perhaps just the Kantō ratings unless the show is particularly popular in the U.S., in columns of the table (alongside air date). Bilorv(c)(talk) 12:36, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Not sure I agree with this, especially as Kantō is only one small region in Japan. Just because data exists it doesn't automatically warrant inclusion in an encyclopedia. Also the data is from a secondary soutce, Anime News Network. Ozflashman (talk)
I wouldn't call an area with 43 million inhabitants "one small region". I'm not saying we should include it because it exists, but because it's important real-life context. Including ratings is simply the standard in television-related articles. Find a better source for the data if you think it's inadequate, but as long as it's reliable I see no problem with secondary sources for ratings. Bilorv(c)(talk) 01:18, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
  • My argument is that Kantō is one of 8 regions in a country of almost 127 million people, so why not include statistics for all regions, or total Japanese viewers? Also reliability is not the question, it is a secondary source of unverified data and also no clarification of what the rating actually means. That being said, this information still does not belong in the Summary. Ozflashman (talk) 04:23, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
I see multiple issue here. The first is – why aren't these ratings listed in a 'Ratings' column in the table, rather than appended into the episodes summaries prose? Or does {{Japanese episode list}} not have such a parameter? (If so, I support its merging into {{Episode list}} even more strongly!) Second, why are there separate "season" articles in this case?! The "season" articles don't contain enough separate content to justify standalone "season" articles, and the content there should be merged back to the LoE article (and to the parent article in the case of DVD info...). They are also misnamed under WP:NCTV, regardless – it should be My Hero Academia (season 1), not List of My Hero Academia episodes (season 1)... All these kinds of issues seem rife with the so-called "anime" articles, from what I've seen... --IJBall (contribstalk) 15:27, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
  • There are multiple issues with the My Hero Academia collection of articles, however I'd like to focus on the "episode watching numbers" first. Ozflashman (talk) 22:11, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
To be honest, to me the main problem is the fact that a Japanese show has US release date and viewership information. Either WP:TVINTL is followed or it isn't and then all countries should be added. As an additional note, "English airdate" column seems to me also out of place, as it gives a date, but doesn't say what country and channel it was shown on, so not very useful information. --Gonnym (talk) 17:21, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Yes – that should be "U.S. air date" or "UK air date" or "Canadian air date" (whereever it aired in the "English-speaking world" first), but "English air date" is so vague as to be opaque! --IJBall (contribstalk) 17:37, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
  • I agree with the two above comments, especially the vagueness of "English airdate". Ozflashman (talk) 22:11, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Rfc[edit]

If interested, please share your opinion on the Rfc on Character Names in plot summaries. Jauerbackdude?/dude.

Articles for Deletion for Two Upcoming Episodes of the New Series Into the Dark[edit]

Thought I would make all who follow this page aware of the deletion discussion occurring over two upcoming episodes of the television series Into the Dark. The discussion is happening here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Body (Into the Dark).

Remove viewing figures from episode tables[edit]

I believe that including viewership data in episode tables is not appropriate. The episode table is supposed to provide information (title, airdate, credits, plot) that help identify an episode. Having a column for viewership data in the same table appears to be out of place. We could instead have this data presented in the appropriate "Ratings" section of a season article with ratings tables using {{Television episode ratings}}, that also provide info on share/rating and a more accurate picture of delayed viewing with DVR ratings. - Radiphus (talk) 10:51, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

I definitely agree with this. However, it's such a big change that it would require a very strong consensus. I think it actually came up somewhere while discussing the viewer graph templates... Anyways. I would support the removal of the viewer parameter, as it's not something that relates to the episode as it airs. You don't say, "The episode was titled A, directed by B and written by C. Oh, and did you know that it had D viewers?" This way, viewership info can be confined to the correct sections and templates. It will also match with episode tables for Netflix(/other online streaming service) series that don't have ratings information, so that broadcast series have their own separate section for such info. Often, rows on the {{Television episode ratings}} template are hidden until the episode has actually aired, else it appears as just duplication of the episode name and date - having the viewership info in the episode table is exactly the same manner of duplication. -- AlexTW 13:51, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
As I don't usually edit these templates, just to be clear, articles use both Template:Episode list and Template:Television episode ratings? If so then I agree it shouldn't be added to the episode list. --Gonnym (talk) 14:01, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
That's correct. -- AlexTW 14:32, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
A lot of articles don't include ratings tables so the viewer figures in the episode tables is the only viewership data that there is. Once upon a time we didn't include viewership data in the episode tables but it became so popular to do so (usually by using |Aux4=) that in 2012 we added a field specifically for viewer data. Currently, 10,671 articles use {{Episode list}} while only 357 use {{Television episode ratings}}. How many actually have a ratings section is a bit harder to work out. However, it would be rather silly to even consider removing the Viewers field as this would remove the only ratings data in thousands of articles.
The episode table is supposed to provide information (title, airdate, credits, plot) that help identify an episode - That's never actually been the case. The episode table is supposed to provide encyclopaedic information about an episode and that includes everything that is catered for in {{Episode list}} including viewer figures. There have been plenty of articles where ratings tables have actually been removed because what was in them was redundant to what was in the episode table.
You don't say, "The episode was titled A, directed by B and written by C. Oh, and did you know that it had D viewers?" - You may not but a lot of people find value in the information. Strictly speaking, all you really need to identify an episode is the title and air date, not writers, directors, production codes and so on. Different readers have different requirements and so we incorporate a lot of information to cater for the needs of different readers. --AussieLegend () 14:40, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Then we move it back to Aux4, while removing Viewers, then we as a team review the articles and take a look at which ones need ratings sections. We did it with the over 2000+ articles that needed colour updates, it's not that big an issue. If episode table is supposed to provide encyclopaedic information about an episode, then why are the complete ratings and shares not included there? They are encyclopaedic information about an episode. Why do we not include air dates in other countries? The multitude of people listed in a varying number of occupations in the credits? It's not really a solid reason for the inclusion of one piece of information, when so many more are available but also not included. Removing the requirement for a viewers parameter means that the ratings sections would no longer be redundant, and would give an actual reason for such a section, as well as removing the duplication. (Personally, I believe production codes have no place there either, but that's another discussion.) -- AlexTW 14:59, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
In a word, "No", that's a terrible idea, and will make {{Episode list}} less useful to editors. There's a disconcerting attitude among many Wikipedians, that "editors should serve template editors, and readers should serve editors" – that's exactly backwards. --IJBall (contribstalk) 16:20, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
I don't see that attitude. The only one I've seen is that I never understand these discussions, as almost nothing ever passes with consensus in this WikiProject. I can't recall the last time something did. -- AlexTW 16:24, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Then we move it back to Aux4, while removing Viewers - I'm sorry Alex but that is probably the most absurd thing that you've ever suggested. Aux4 is a general field while the entire point of the Viewers field is to display viewer information. There are thousands of articles that have viewer figures and nothing else. They're always going to need the Viewers field because the other ratings information likely isn't available any more. We're not going to create ratings tables where we don't have information necessary to populate the tables and we won't be removing viewer information without damn good reason so why move the information from a perfectly valid field? It makes no sense at all.
We did it with the over 2000+ articles that needed colour updates - We were compelled to do it for those articles because colour is an accessibility issue. There is no issue that requires us to revise ratings information in articles.
why are the complete ratings and shares not included there? - Like everything else on Wikipedia that is missing, it's because nobody has added it. In some cases it's not available, especially for programs that aired decades before Wikipedia existed.
Removing the requirement for a viewers parameter - There is no requirement that the field be populated, or any ratings information be included at all. It, however, is encyclopaedic information seen to be important by many editors and readers so we provide a venue for it to be included.
means that the ratings sections would no longer be redundant - Existence of the field doesn't mean that the rating sections are redundant so removing it wouldn't change anything.
would give an actual reason for such a section - Similarly, lack of a field doesn't justify the creation of a section. --AussieLegend () 17:23, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
You insulting my opinion isn't going to make this discussion go faster, so I'm done here. No discussion in this WikiProject ever gets consensus anyways; as soon as someone suggests a new topic, they get attacked: this, the ratings graphs, merging episode lists, overhauls, everyone's personal standard practices. -- AlexTW 17:29, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
I wasn't insulting your opinion, just stating that the implementation is absurd, and I explained why this is so. --AussieLegend () 06:45, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
Oppose on the grounds of "table creep". IOW, it's not the 'Viewers' column that needs to be removed from episodes tables – it's the unnecessary proliferation of 'Ratings tables' (esp. {{Television episode ratings}}) further down the article that needs to go. --IJBall (contribstalk) 14:22, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Why would we keep the single piece of information (that doesn't properly describe an episode's ratings) and removed the table of detailed information? -- AlexTW 14:32, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm also opposed – it's fine to decide on an article-by-article basis whether the column, a ratings table, a prose section or a mixture are best. I simply don't understand the arguments that ratings are out of place on the episode table – it's a simple numerical fact about the episode – and "if we include one rating we would have to include them all" is a slippery slope fallacy in this case, because we often include just one airdate or just one episode title when the episode might have been broadcast in 153 different countries and 86 different languages. Bilorv(c)(talk) 15:41, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
My feelings on these matters have been clear for years. I've never been in agreement for ratings tables that contain a lot of redundant information and information that most readers don't understand. I would actually be more of a proponent of adding 1 additional column that has those precious shares, so we can do away with an entire table that isn't necessary.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 16:03, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Absolutely. This is a general interest encyclopedia, {{Television episode ratings}} contains a bunch of WP:INDISCRIMINATE info (see: "Excessive listings of unexplained statistics.") that we should not be reporting . We should not be playing Madison Avenue's tedious game, and reporting upteen iterations of "demo" ratings. For a general encyclopedia, "All Viewers" "same day" ratings is sufficient. I don't even think we need to report "share"... --IJBall (contribstalk) 16:14, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
"Share" is linked to Nielsen ratings. Should we then nominate that article for deletion? It's nothing of interested to a general reader. -- AlexTW 16:20, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
How "viewserhip" is obtained from "share" is a tedious technical question that we don't need to throw at readers in the 'Ratings' info we present. Obviously, the details on that are relevant specifically at the article Nielsen ratings, but not necessarily elsewhere. But most of what is derived from that is irrelevant Madison Avenue b.s. that we can, and should, ignore. --IJBall (contribstalk) 16:25, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
I can't imagine the average person browsing Wikipedia even knows what a share is. It's just an extra bit of data people add for broadcast shows as it's never really reported on cable. Cable shows have served just fine without it as people only really care about the 18-49 demo and the amount of live or dvr viewers. Esuka323 (talk) 16:28, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Okay, so we delete the article. The average person doesn't know what a share is, right? What's the 18-49 demo? -- AlexTW 16:33, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
The 18-49 demographic is a metric used to sell commercials to advertisers. Basically it's how virtually all of the networks out there make their money from shows. It's more important than overall viewers. There's only a few instances where total viewers mean something and that's for networks like Starz or HBO that rely on how many subscribers are viewing their shows live and ondemand. Esuka323 (talk) 16:38, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Oppose per Aussie, IJBall, Bilorv, and Bignole. Amaury (talk | contribs) 16:23, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Oppose per other points raised. They serve a valid purpose in the episode tables for casual users browsing wikipedia. Esuka323 (talk) 16:25, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
I oppose this as well. Listing total viewers for episodes along with titles, credits, etc. is appropriate, historical, encyclopedic content (a secondary benefit no one has brought up- the inline citations after ratings also serve to verify air dates). In fact it’s the inverse that I find less useful to the general public: the ridiculously excessive demo ratings data tables, as mentioned by some above. -- Wikipedical (talk) 19:47, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
If the C3 ratings were made public I would have suggested a few changes for tables. C3 ratings are the internal numbers held by networks that track Live + 3 days of commercial viewing and are generally around the same level as the L+SD 18-49 viewing as Nielsen viewers skip commercials. With a short explanation someone could have created a table of sorts. Esuka323 (talk) 20:23, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

The King of Queens[edit]

Could we please get some more eyes of The King of Queens? There is an anonymous editor there persistently replacing the partially referenced "Syndication" section with an unreferenced, listified, flag heavy version,[1][2][3][4] despite reversions and any requests on his talk page. --AussieLegend () 05:21, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

In cases like this, the editor should be reported to WP:ANEW or WP:ANI. -- AlexTW 06:40, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
That's the next step but I've only just given him a final warning today. --AussieLegend () 07:09, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Ozark (TV series)[edit]

Hi all, your opinions are needed regarding whether a lengthy section detailing symbols and their explanations from the opening credits of Ozark. I'm a somewhat newer editor to the Ozark article, and by looking at the edit history, the content has generally been deleted as per being trivial. Here's a few examples of it being deleted previously. The newest version of it is even more lengthy and detailed, and the editor who created it, now moved the content to its own article: Ozark (TV series) Opening Credit Symbols, which is even more problematic. Please see the talk pages, Talk:Ozark (TV series) and Talk:Ozark (TV series) Opening Credit Symbols if you wish to share an opinion. Thank you. Drovethrughosts (talk) 13:54, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Sources for air dates outside the U.S.?[edit]

For the air dates of TV shows that (formerly) aired in the United States, there are numerous possible sources – TV Guide, Zap2It, Amazon, The Futon Critic... even EpGuides.

What I'd like to know is – are there any equivalent comprehensive "authoritative" sources for episodes and air dates for TV shows in Canada, the UK, Australia, and New Zealand, et al., and if so, what are they?! (I took a quick look at the Radio Times website, but it doesn't seem to have the kind of episodes/air dates database that TV Guide's does.)

I'm particularly interested in something like this for Canada, and the UK (but I'd be interested in a source for air dates for any of these countries...). TIA. --IJBall (contribstalk) 16:19, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

UK, I've always used RadioTimes (example). Australia, Australian Television. Canada, I've always seemed to have to use Zap2It (like at List of Killjoys episodes, but that may be because it airs in the US at the same time...). -- AlexTW 03:33, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Featured article nomination for San Junipero[edit]

Editors familiar with the featured article process may be interested in the nomination of "San Junipero", an episode of anthology series Black Mirror. The nomination can be found here. Thanks! Bilorv(c)(talk) 21:29, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

xtreams?[edit]

What is "xtreams" inserted here:[5]? Is it something we should use for anything? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 00:19, 4 September 2018 (UTC)